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Find here the full  China paradigm episode 31. Learn more about Matt Cogner’s story in China and how he implemented a corporate culture in a global business and find all the details and additional links below.

Full transcript below:

MATTHIEU DAVID:  Hello, everyone. I am Matthieu David, the founder of Daxue Consulting and its podcast, China marketing podcast, China Paradigm. Today I am with Matt Conger, the co-founder of Cadence Translate, used to be named SeekPanda?

MATT CONGER:  SeekPanda, yes.

MATTHIEU DAVID:  Cadence Translate focused on the Chinese language at the beginning, now on more than 29 languages, and coordinates translation services. I started just by reading about your company. It is embedded with technology and solutions, which we are going to talk about. To people listening to us an idea of your company, you have built a committee of one or two Southern, vibrant linguists, which I’m relying on your LinkedIn profile for the information, and you raised money. That is something I’d like to know more about. Why did you raise money? Was it for some targets or its part of getting this translation service in China? I am sure anyone who is listening to us knows one of your investors, Dianping. More recently, in 2017, you raised series A or a more sizeable round of investment to finance the growth. I am trying to understand that as well. You are very focused on the financial market in China and other regions, and I would like to understand also how you came upon focusing on the translation service in China and what are the challenges of doing business in China in an industry with very demanding clients. So, thank you very much for doing this. You are currently in LA, the US? 

MATT CONGER: That’s right, yeah. Thank you for having me.

MATTHIEU DAVID: Thank you. It is 7 am in China, pretty early. So it’s a good time to talk.

MATT CONGER: Absolutely. I am looking forward to it.

MATTHIEU DAVID: So, anything I said was correct? Do you have to correct anything?

MATT CONGER: No. We’re always excited to tell our story and the stories of the clients that we see around us.

MATTHIEU DAVID: Could you tell us about the size of the company now? I read on your LinkedIn profile that you have 2500 linguists on your platform. Could you share some numbers like the size of the team, revenues, the number of clients? We got some numbers that you get several Android leads or clients every month with this network, 2400 requests a month. My own business is 80 as a start. So would you be able to share some metrics?

MATT CONGER: First of all, our company is 5 years old. Our founding date was actually this past week so happy birthday to us. We grew 75% last year in terms of revenue, and that was driven by a focus on a lot of our core clients. On average, we are doing about 1000 or so jobs per month. We can talk about what a job means a little bit later if you want. The community servicing this pool, as you mentioned, is about 2500 linguists worldwide and when we say linguists, for anyone listening out there, we are using to encompass translators, interpreters, and even transcribers, all of which don’t really call themselves linguists, but we find it’s a convenient label. In terms of the size of the employees, we have about a dozen or so in Beijing, where I started the company and used to live. We are adding more and more here in Los Angeles and hopefully soon in New York as well.

MATTHIEU DAVID: I see. Could you tell us more about the translation service in China and the US you provide? A translation service has been in the market for ages and decades. Based on what I know from you, I am sure there is something you discovered, something bigger than just translation service in China. Did you add technology or something specific? Also, when we deal with human beings, there is always something uncertain about the quality of the O2O service in China. How do you harmonize? I believe it is a lot of challenges of doing business in China. Could you tell what your solutions are to solve these challenges of doing business in China that you’ve found unsolved before your entrepreneurship in China? 

MATT CONGER: Absolutely. For us, the challenges of doing business in China we always found was our clients. They need a translation service in China for a specific business objective, which may change from month to month, from week to week or even from day to day. What our real value proposition is a search for the most knowledgeable person, potentially augmented by whatever technology is available to bring that person into your meeting. For example, every day, we estimate that there are about 5000 investor due diligence phone calls that are happening throughout the world. That’s a lot of due diligence projects that need cross-cultural communications in business, and people want to focus on what is being said without worrying about taking notes or doing ancillary market researches in China. For us, it was how we could bring a simple solution so that no matter where our clients are conducting due diligence, we can be there to help them out. I am happy to share more about that, particularly in terms of the product road map, but that’s what really got us to today was this passion and interest in the financial market in China.

MATTHIEU DAVID: I would like to know more about your technology. Have you developed your own technology or you are using technology form others?

MATT CONGER: We’re using technology from others. For example, we are doing this over Zoom, which quietly announced a few months ago that it is going to offer simultaneous interpretation as a feature on its platform. This is something that we don’t think the financial market in China is particularly well-trained to handle, so if all of a sudden all these enterprise clients had access to it, how would they use it? We looked for the best solutions that are out there. You can also apply this to the translation service in China, when we look at the amazing advances that Baidu, iFlytek, and Microsoft that are  utilizing, so we think of ourselves more as an integrator than a developer.

MATTHIEU DAVID: I strongly believe that there is a lot of value for integrators because there are so many solutions currently that can be selected. Knowing that the product has a limit is above value. We are using a lot of software, but knowing them and being able to use them is able to bring value to our clients with technology. So I fully understand that. One thing about internal organization, how do you run the matchmaking with so many people, 2500 linguists, to use your wording and one client? How do you match them to make sure it is the right person?

MATT CONGER:    Sure well, that’s our secret sauce, if you will, but it really comes down to what the client is looking for, and there are three options. They are either looking for domain expertise, for example, I am doing due diligence on the solar industry, and I want a solar expert. Or they are looking for format expertise, for example, they are having a one-hour meeting with a famous entrepreneur in China, and they want someone comfortable in that type of interview format. The third option is that they just need somebody now and don’t really care about the background. They only want speed. So what we try to provide is an understanding of which of these three dimensions, the client is zprioritizing and in the community how we score various people along those dimensions and match make accordingly. 

MATTHIEU DAVID: Does it mean that you have the software or on Excel? How do you work?

MATT CONGER: It’sSalesforce, actually. In terms of the entrepreneurship in China, we started out to build our own technology and thoughtfulness. I discovered the Salesforce ecosystem about 2 years ago, and it has provided countless improvements to our efficiency. That’s how we are able to bring on more people, zutilize dispatch algorithms, do match-making, etc. And it’s not locked in China. You know they can access it.   

MATTHIEU DAVID: Exactly, one of the solutions that are not locked. I am trying to understand why you raised money because I feel you are running a business in the financial market in China, which actually has not developed property technologies and doesn’t make up so much in investment. Where did the investment go into you?

MATT CONGER: Great question. So we actually hadn’t raised money for about two years because that was when we recognized where you are coming to. Translation service in China is a great business. You need to finance your growth, but you are not dumping money in a technology arms race against Microsoft for the translation service in China, so we raised a seed round. It was 1.1 million USD in total, and that was just about building a co-op of investors to give us credibility, to give me some mentors and some reliable sources of experience and, quite frankly, market validation. For example, some of our investors come to form the Hedge Funds world; some of the investors are diplomats. So getting that external validation has been quite nice, but you are correct. This is not a traditional venture-backed company. We focus on growing responsibly, growing profitably, and making our clients happy.

MATTHIEU DAVID: I have some questions because I have an investor in my company from another business I started before I piloted. That’s why I have this question for you. About pricing valuation in China, when you mentioned that you work for financial institutions in the financial market in China, we correlate to high prices. How do you price your service, since quality service is being high priced? Is it a product sharing model as a linguist and it is very standard, 70% for them, 30% for you? Is that the percentage? Is it discretionary and you may pitch different prices in different circumstances?

MATT CONGER: It’s a great question, and I think it’s one of the modest, but important innovations we have brought to this industry, so we price using credits. For example, a Hedge Fund comes to us, and they said, “I have these 10 calls lined up, and then I also need this prospectus translated.” We will say, “One call is one credit, and translation is this many words to a credit.” They say, “Well, how much does a credit cost?” We say, “If you just buy one, it’s this price. If you want to buy 100, it’s this price.” So we give transparency and visibility into our volume discounts. At the same time, we’re removing a lot of the per-word or per-minute charges that the translation service in China used to love because it just feels like counting pennies. I will say, as an entrepreneur in China, our original business model was profit sharing, 80/20, where we would just let the interpreters choose their own price, and then we split it. That worked well in a model, where we were going after a broader set of clients coming to our marketplace website. I am sure we both remember O2O in China was the hot buzz word three years ago. Ultimately, we didn’t find ourselves being differentiated when serving that audience in the financial market in China. We quickly grew our brand, so we needed to adopt a different pricing model.

MATTHIEU DAVID: Would you condition yourself and say you are a premium translation service in China? 

MATT CONGER: As far as I know, the most premium with regards to due diligence in the financial market in China, for sure.   

MATTHIEU DAVID: Okay, I see. 

MATT CONGER:  Which is more the reason for the name SeekPanda. We would have worked when we are trying to uphold a brand that aspires to the heights that we do. We needed something more, a little less region specific and less cute, to be honest.   

MATTHIEU DAVID: I go back to this question because I am not very clear on how you zharmonize the translation service in China. How do you make it start up that you had the same quality as one person, person A, and person B, country A and country B? I feel it is a huge work to make sure that the quality is the same across all the people you work with?

MATT CONGER: You are absolutely right and just to make that challenge of doing business in China even harder, I can share that often, the person that we are coordinating with at the client side is not even the one who needs the interpreter. It is the administrative assistant of that person or a research broker of that person, so it is a constant challenge of doing business in China. For us, I come back to a simple mantra. I want my community to understand how the financial market in China works, because I believe that if they are intellectually curious and follow the financial market in China, they will have enough context to the point when they are sitting on a call with a mutual fund out in Singapore and know the business objective of that mutual fund, or when they get called to join a call at a Japanese private equity firm with their understanding of the context that the firm needs. Now that is the aspiration. The reality is we are not there yet, in terms of getting everyone up to that common level of knowledge about the financial market in China. Our big initiative for 2019 and probably 2020 is helping increase the skills of a lot of our community. That is something that we’ll be doing very shortly, and I am quite excited about.  

MATTHIEU DAVID:  How is your vision of executing this plan to increase the skills?

MATT CONGER:  So we want to be the first translation service in China that is trying to increase the domain knowledge of our community. We are not trying to make people better translators or interpreters, but we are trying to help them better understand the financial market in China, so we are doing a call on Zoom, which had their IPO today. If I would ask 100 interpreters, how does IPO’s work? What does that mean? If you were asked to interpret for “IPO Road Show,” do you know what that means? So we intend to focus on that vocabulary and context. We are going to deliver will be some form of online learning. Perhaps you and I can chat afterward; maybe you’ve got some good tips on platforms or resources for that?   

MATTHIEU DAVID: Do you mean that you select them through a Q&A and you score them in terms of the knowledge about the financial market in China?

MATT CONGER:  That is the idea that there are people who we can tell just from their CVs that they have a very strong background in the translation service in China, but then it comes down to the domain knowledge about the financial market in China. I am a fan of your podcast. I was listening to Pauline Lahary’s interview that you did from myCVfactory. I think she has a similar aspiration of making people have their best foot forward and giving employers a kind of faster route to understanding how best to use them. That is very much our intention as well.  

MATTHIEU DAVID: I see. She’s facing a similar challenge of doing business in China. When I see your post on LinkedIn or maybe other social media, I see that you are fighting a lot for the prominent people you have or companies you have offered service to. I feel that is very, very smart marketing and it could be a very, very strong marketing tool that you offer these services for someone in the financial market in China, such as the Hedge Fund or politicians or whoever is famous. What are your marketing strategies in order to scale your business because it is like 2-400 questions per month? I understand that some clients can come every month, but I believe that you are onboarding new clients at the same time. Could you share a bit more about your marketing strategies and your client relation strategies? 

MATT CONGER:  Marketing strategy for us is simple. We want to be the brand authority when it comes to due diligence for cross-border activity in the financial market in China. To our great surprise, this was a surprisingly open space in the financial market in China. There are many firms that tell you how to do entrepreneurship in China, but they are pushing their own agenda. There are many consulting firms that help you get things done, but there’s no one as laser-focused as we are by publishing often about international due diligence in the financial market in China and we hope to be top of mind. Remember we are marketing to two audiences, our clients and linguists. On the linguist side, we try to have the same content be wrapped around messaging of this is going to make your career more lucrative and give you more interesting assignments. But it all comes down to having a content strategy to get referrals. What actions can we take to inspire someone so much that they are going to give us referrals, because it is our most profitable marketing channel in the last few years, for sure?

MATTHIEU DAVID: I see. I do try to scale this referral program through incentives, through gatherings or any methodology?

MATT CONGER: We have tried the traditional SaaS model of referring a friend and get a $100 Amazon gift card or what, but that backfired, to be honest. That doesn’t do justice to what we are trying to do, so instead, we are tracking referrals by sending them kind of small gifts. We are trying to do meet-ups whenever I travel, take folks out for dinner and those types of things in terms of referrals. I imagine it is similar to your business consulting. It is accelerated by referrals in kind of all levels.

MATTHIEU DAVID: You co-founded the company. Could you tell us a bit more about your co-founders, and how you met them, what is their origin, how you began to work together? A bit more understanding about how you began for the projects themselves in your entrepreneurship in China? 

MATT CONGER:  I came from the due diligence world, where that was my entire career up to the point when I moved to China with very little knowledge of the translation service in China. So when I landed in Beijing, I googled to see who was good at it and found a gentleman Jonathan Rechtman, who at the time was a freelancer scaling up his own reputation and doing all sorts of fascinating assignments. I pitched him on this idea of what if we can have a platform to expand the translation service in China, increase the reach of what we are trying to do, and not have to be structured as a traditional agency that, quite frankly, functions as a guild, but something a little more thoughtful. Since we are both in Beijing, we took a leap of faith together. Colloquially he knows the supply side extremely well, and I know the demand side extremely well, but the importance of having a co-founder is to understate it throughout the whole entrepreneurship in China. If Jonathan were here in LA with me, then he would be sitting right over here, but now he is based in Beijing, so he looks after a lot of our activities and partnerships from Beijing.

MATTHIEU DAVID: That’s the question I wanted to ask. I know that you have two offices in Beijing and LA. How do you manage so far the different locations? I see that you are also in New York. How do you manage all the locations, and what is your plan for all those locations within functions, sales reps, or operations? Would you mind sharing about that and this use?  

MATT CONGER:  I think first and foremost, corporate culture in global business is the most important thing to the long term success. I was very nervous when we decided to set up multiple geographies, for myself as CEO not being at the same geography as the majority of our caddies. For us, one of the core tenets is that we want to have every caddy go through the same experience, which for us is equivalent to when you join Google or Twitter, you have to code a little app before they let you into your job. So we like to have people in that match-making pilot seat that we just discussed. For example, our head of marketing has to spend three months just match-making to get some sympathy and empathy for what our clients and our other employees go through. With that in mind, we do hope to build a common culture across our offices. Now, we have made a lot of mistakes, and I am sure I am going to make several more, but that is the intention. The Beijing team has done a tremendous job of staying up overnight because we serve clients around the globe and we do not yet have folks in LA or New York to serve people in that time zone. We had some very brave people agreeing to do the overnight shift in Beijing. It was good during our entrepreneurship in China, and I am eager to transition it to something more sustainable.

MATTHIEU DAVID: How do you manage cross-cultural communications in business, like people calling you and having to stay up very late at night? How do you compensate them? How do you work on this challenge of doing business in China?

MATT CONGER: It is about trying to figure out what is a good fit for their career and then put them on a path to support that. For example, the team that is supporting our North American and South American clients are mostly Westerners, so they do aspire to take all the relationships they are building and at some point zcapitalize on those and go back to their home territories. It is also a matter of compensation. People who are hungrier and more willing to work overnight definitely get a compensation bump, but that isn’t sustainable. So it really is trying to find someone who is based in a country that might not be somewhere they want to stay long term. For example, we provide an English-speaking office that allows you to work with western clients. You just have to work overnight. It is very well for some people’s career, and we were fortunate enough to find some very talented people to fill out that team.

MATTHIEU DAVID:   How you build your corporate culture in a global business? Did you use some resources for inspiration? When we think about companies, we always think about a product and less about cross-cultural communications in business. But at the end of the day, the company is developed by people and what units people is its corporate culture in global business. Now the word ‘culture’ is more and more used in companies, and I feel more and more during my entrepreneurship in China that corporate culture in global business is at the essence or is one of the most important things in a company. Could you share more about your principals? Maybe you have some company values and how you built your corporate culture in a global business?

MATT CONGER:   As a CEO, one and the most important job of mine is to look out what inspires people to build and live a corporate culture in a global business that we all want. For us, the number one company value I will share with you is to win the referral. This is the idea that you need to spark someone’s enthusiasm for what they need, either on the supply side as a linguist or on the domain side as a client and just make them happy. On the day one, when employees join, I take them through an overview of our culture and zemphasize that that is our top value. The second thing I would mention is that you really need to find people that are intellectually curious. In Beijing, for example, we have a very diverse set of folks. This week is the Indonesian Presidential Election, and I bring that up because we have one Indonesian and two Malaysians in our team. I love the fact that they are talking about current events. Therefore, how will that affect the financial market in China and Asia and our clients? So from a culture perspective, finding people passionate about winning a referral and how the world works are what we aim to do, which is I think what makes us sustainable.  

MATTHIEU DAVID: I see. Some people say in a company, to build a vision and values, but what was your process in building that? Is it your own thinking or personality? Is it because you observe people within your teamwork career? How did you build it? From my experience, a lot of entrepreneurs in China build their values on their own personality, more than the observation of what the clients like, what the clients are looking for and what the team is working well with as values? What is your process?

MATT CONGER: I have a lot of personality traits that, I hope, won’t an impact on our culture. Instead, I try to point our team towards zorganizations whose culture I admire and connect the dots for them between the success of these companies and the corporate culture in a global business that underpins. For example, in the professional services world, there is a very competitive market known as spirit networks. There are a bunch of them in China and all over the world. We have observed that the culture of this spirit networks is very different, and you could almost predict market share changes based on, like Glassdoor reviews of these different organizations. So companies that numerically get good scores for employee satisfaction we have noticed are just capturing market share. To me, it is causation, not a correlation. 22-year-olds make up the majority of our entry-level employees. We are their first professional firm and certainly their first western one. Instead of being that the kind of the chairman giving what the vision is, I like to just point people to zorganizations that inspire me, ideally give them exposure to these organizations, and just have them emulate all of the things that we notice.   

MATTHIEU DAVID: I see. Talking about causation, what books have inspired you on your entrepreneurship in China? I think one of the topics that are very close to your topic is about remote work because so many of your linguists are working from their own location. Knowing more about how to manage remote working is certainly one topic you have looked into. Could you share some books that have inspired you during your entrepreneurship in China and more specifically, I would like to know how you conceived and thought about remote working?

MATT CONGER: To the point of zorganizations whose culture I admire, this isn’t a very beloved company, but let’s talk about ExxonMobil, this giant company. It is written about 6 years ago called ‘Private Empire,’ which talked about how an incredibly focused firm Exxon Mobil is and how it really tied to look at the future, in terms of geopolitics, economics, etc. Back from that, how do we figure out our operations to thrive in that future and to some extent? That’s what we like to do. We like to say, “AI and technology are coming. How are you going to adapt to a world where your iPhone is going to get you through 90% of business meetings, but you are going to need some solutions for the other 10%?” We look at the world where the US-China trade war is going to shift investor’s attention to different parts of the world, so how do we adapt to that? That narrative in that book really inspired me to have discipline on the organizational level and a think tank mentality of looking at the future. Now to your question about remote workers, there is no one resource that has really inspired me. I will say both our offices in LA and Beijing are in WeWork. I do think that to some extent, demographics are on our side and we are going to get more remote workers. For example, we said Cadence has a four-room studio and 20 WeWork around the world, so you can be a remote worker in Tokyo or Seoul. Whenever you have a call, you could just do it in the comfort of your nice office without having all the burdens of having an office job. That’s an experiment. That is a hypothesis, but I do think in terms of remote workers, that is the direction we want to move towards, and to some extent, we are seeing it happen already. 

MATTHIEU DAVID: Talking about the book, on the product-end point, if I am correct, I feel what you are saying is that excellently managing the company based on more macro-economic trends like geopolitics, demographics and so on. How, as a small to medium business, can you get inspired by methodologies that are used by such a big company? The correlation I see already is about the languages. Indonesia is growing on politics and certainly, a need for more translators because you are serving the financial market in China and Asia, which certainty is key for them. Could you share more and tell me if I am correct about the reasons?    

MATT CONGER: You are correct. As a global translation service in China trying to get ahead of the trends for where investor due diligence is focused on, there is also this mindset of consumption of news and trying to connect patterns. That is something that Exxon does at a massive scale, and I would like us to do at a much smaller scale. One idea of implementing what we have done is allowed people to give stock picks. If we ask people to publically say, “I really like this company. If I had $1,000,000, I would put it in this company.” This act of putting a stake in the ground and saying, “I believe in this” forces each other to question that logic or to learn from it. We have joked that we would run a kind of side investment vehicle for our employees based on their ideas. Clearly, we are not doing that, but again taking that big company mentality of looking into the future, we try to implement it at a very small scale with things like that.  

MATTHIEU DAVID: I see. To be a bit more China-specific for the end, what are the specific challenges of doing business in China you have witnessed during your entrepreneurship in China?

MATT CONGER: Well, can we do another two hours? I think it might take 2 hours to go through this. First one is talent. In a foreign country of so many ambitious, intelligent people, trying to build a pipeline of talent is challenging for a westerner. When I talked about my co-founder Jonathan, you can remember from his last name, Rechtman that he’s not Chinese. The two of us really had an uphill battle in terms of thinking how do we create a sustainable hiring process etc. Do we try to embrace some Chinese hiring methodologies, or do we try to import Western or Silicon Valley ones? The second challenge of doing business in China is about the basics of running a small business. For our western clients, the payment processing, our CRM Salesforce, and a lot of these basic issues reduce the productivity of China-based employees considerably, though no fault of their own, but there is a limited ability for us to improve that. I could go on and on, but those are the two big challenge of doing business in China.

MATTHIEU DAVID: So in China you have WFOE, you have your own company, and you also have companies in the US, I believe, right?

MATT CONGER: That’s right so the parent company is in the US and we have a China WFOE that took us a year and a half to permit it, but that’s our structure.

MATTHIEU DAVID: Talking about challenge of doing business in China as a translation service in China within the financial market in China, what do you feel it specifically more difficult to serve your clients in the financial market in China?

MATT CONGER: Great question. The number one challenge of doing business in China I would say would be compliance. By this, I mean there’s this concept of material nonpublic information. In 5000 investment calls that I mentioned earlier, the number one commandment is thou shalt not reveal material nonpublic information. For better or for worse, in China there is less respect for that concept, so it can put our einterpreters in a very awkward spot if they’re facilitating a conversation and insider information is coming out or if someone in one of these conversations solicited inside information or did something with that. For us, the biggest challenge of doing business in China is not the nuance of the language or putting the business card or the WeChat correctly, but is compliance and the respect with which we deserve to be treated.

MATTHIEU DAVID: So how do you solve this issue? Do you train people you are going to be in touch with? Do you want them before the call or before the talk is starting?

MATT CONGER: We do all that we can. We really try to look at their background and get a sense of whether they are trained in institutions that zemphasize ethics. Are they aware of what even constitutes inside information, and to what extent? Where are they in their career, such that they would understand the implications of it? We do mention that people go to jail for trading on insider information, and both in the US and in China, there are serious repercussions for obeying the compliance. But it’s an endless challenge of doing business in China, and I live in fear that it just takes one little slip-up and a whole house of cards can collapse, not just our company, but all the research brokers that are out there facilitating those 5000 phone calls. It’s something that we can only give sticks. We can’t give carrots.

MATTHIEU DAVID: It reminds me of my first business, D’Elysee, a gift box business. Inside the gift box, we were selling scuba diving, sky diving, driving a luxury car, and you can imagine how stressful it can be to make sure they have the right insurance. The Chinese insurance market is not as mature as the US or Europe, where everyone is insured. So I fully understand what you are talking about. Again to talk a bit more about China, what resources do you use to be up to date about entrepreneurship in China, and what books would you recommend?

MATT CONGER: A great question. I am going to come back to this theme of the financial market in China because I tend to look more at what the Wall Street Journal or the Financial Times is covering in China, which I completely understand is a very skewed perspective from the Western side. I try to compliment that by just asking the local team members what they are reading and trying to provoke some of those discussions. In terms of books, by the time you write a book in China, it’s out of date. It can certainly be true. One resource I will direct your listeners’ attention to is this fantastic website called Muddy Waters Research. It’s a great and provocative name, and it is a research firm that uncovers accounting fraud or just bad actors in China. They will target publically traded companies and say, “Hey, I am pretty sure you guys are cooking the books. We are going to publish our research findings on your publically.” I highly recommend reading those reports. They give a fascinating view as to how kind of the financial market in China and all of the auditors and that ecosystem come together. All the work is free, and it’s just a good name, Muddy Waters.

MATTHIEU DAVID: Focusing on China?

MATT CONGER: Yes. They may expand, but all they do is focus on Chinese companies, so it could be companies that are listed in China or Chinese companies that are listed overseas.

MATTHIEU DAVID: I see.

MATT CONGER: The fact that they write in English, but they are sanalyzing the financial market in China is really quite compelling.

MATTHIEU DAVID: I see. I have the same feeling that books about China are so quickly out of date, except about the history in China.

MATT CONGER: Sure.

MATTHIEU DAVID: It is difficult to find a good one. Thank you very much, Matt, for being with us. It was very insightful. I discovered a lot more through the interview about Cadence.

MATT CONGER: Yes, absolutely. Thank you for having me and looking forward to meeting up when we are in the same city soon.  

MATTHIEU DAVID: Yeah, hopefully, soon. Thank you. Have a good day.

MATT CONGER: Cheers. Bye.

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